Speaker 1: 0:00

Okay, sounds good.

Speaker 2: 0:01

Cool and I'll do a brief intro. Okay, hey everybody, welcome back to Priority Traffic Podcast. I'm your host, chris, and today I have a very special guest with me, destiny Morris, a dedicated therapist specializing in mental health of first responders. Destiny brings a wealth of experience and deep understanding of the unique challenges we face as first responders. With a background that includes a bachelor's degree in theology and in sociology applied psychology, destiny's expertise is comprehensive and nuanced. In her practice, she focuses on being trauma-informed which we'll talk about more and culturally competent, particularly for the first responder community. She's trained in EMDR and is a the first responder community. She's trained in EMDR and is a certified first responder counselor, bringing both personal and clinical insights to her work. Destiny, welcome to Priority Traffic Podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:19

We are honored to have you and you will be officially the first therapist on the podcast, so thanks for breaking that glass.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Absolutely Honored to be here. Thank you for trusting me.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Absolutely so. I wanted to have you on and just kind of start introducing therapy as a viable modality for healing for first responders, but also as something we might want to have in our back pocket. You know, when most days are good we might not consider therapy as something we need, but when things get challenging we start thinking about those type of things and I highly advocate for having a really good relationship with a professionally trained counselor or therapist prior to needing it. But before we get into oh sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Absolutely, that's good.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Good. So before we get into that, please go ahead and give us a little background information. I know I touched on a few things, but introduce yourself to the audience and we'll take it from there.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Yeah, so I'm a licensed therapist. I specialize specifically in. Yeah, so I'm a licensed therapist. I specialize specifically in first responders. So I see individuals who are first responders. I also see couples and then I see the children of first responders, so teenagers to adults and the spouses of first responders. I begun my practice specifically around that. My dad was in law enforcement. I've worked primarily with first responders from the get and then I was trained in EMDR therapy so that I could do more trauma-informed care. I've worked in psych hospitals. I've worked in substance abuse. I worked closely with EAP systems. I worked I work closely with EAP systems. I, yeah, typically just work around first responders and work with them, and I have some clients who are non-first responders as well, but I would say most of my practice is there. I'm based out of California and my practice is telehealth, so I see everybody either through Zoom or over the phone.

Speaker 2: 3:22

Nice. So you are. I don't know I can't speak if you're available for more clients or not, but technically you you can see people from anywhere.

Speaker 1: 3:33

Uh well, I'm only licensed in California, so I can see anybody in California, yeah, um, but I do have a room and then I also, um, I'm just a good person if someone needs therapy in a different state because I have such a large database of other clinicians who are culturally competent. So if anyone is listening and they're like, oh shoot, I'm in a different state, but I'm looking for a good therapist, send me a message, because I do have those connections in other states as well.

Speaker 2: 4:00

Great. Why don't you shoot your email right now too? That way they can get it if they're listening.

Speaker 1: 4:05

Absolutely. It's my first and my last name and then the word therapy, so it's destinymorristherapy at gmailcom.

Speaker 2: 4:12

Perfect, thank you for doing that. And, like I said, like she said, if you guys need anything or are curious, please reach out, don't hesitate. It's a very important step we may take. It's a very important step we may take, so what kind of got you?

Speaker 1: 4:31

into being a therapist, especially with first responders. Yeah, so, like I said, my dad is a first responder.

Speaker 1: 4:35

He's in law enforcement and then I dated a firefighter for many years. So having those two experiences being the partner of a first responder but then also being the daughter of a first responder I knew that I had the clinical competence piece down. I've lived in it. Now the clinical piece of it came a little bit after. I worked in a psych hospital which is wild, to say the least and when I worked in there I would see first responders who would come in for either substance abuse problems or psychosis related to PTSD and I noticed that they didn't have their own space where they were treated just as first responders. They were put into the general public. So that obviously has a lot of issues. When I saw that, I knew that there was a need for more first responder clinicians and then that's kind of why I did EMDR and then did my certified first responder therapist as well.

Speaker 2: 5:37

Okay, so why would we not want to have our first responders lumped into general population?

Speaker 1: 5:45

as far as treatment goes, I mean I think probably pretty straightforward for most listeners but you don't want to be locked into a facility struggling with substance abuse when, let's say, you're in there with the general public, so people who are not first responders, who are struggling with psychosis. Or let's say, you're in law enforcement and I know this is more fire, but you know you're in there with someone that you potentially arrested at some point Um and it, I mean there's a privacy aspect of it. I think that's the first thing that comes to mind, especially our first responders and fire family. We're very protective. We protect our families. There is a shield that comes around us and with that, when you put first responders in the general public, not only are they not getting the treatment that they need and the specialization that they need because there's so many different aspects of the job that need to be understood in order to treat these things but you're also losing your privacy by being in with the general public.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Sure, that makes a lot of sense. So, and then the approach, I would imagine the approach to treating first responders and, like you said, being culturally competent, that is a big step in the right direction too, to know, kind of understand, where we're coming from.

Speaker 1: 7:05

Yeah, absolutely. I've heard I'm sure you have too that obviously there's a stigma around mental health, and I'm not going to pretend there's not one now. I think I hear other clinicians say, like, oh, it's getting better, and I do believe it is, but it depends on the department. Some departments are very proactive about it. Some are the crunchy crusty guys that have been there for, you know, 10, 20 years. They don't want to talk about mental health. Um, so it really depends, and I think there are things that are changing in it for the better, but, um, it still is. There's a lot of stigma to it. So, um, I it's very, very, very important that you find a clinician who knows, you know, at the very least, the culture.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Yeah, I've heard some horror stories about bad therapy. Unfortunately, I always ask, you know, when I get a new client, have you been to therapy before? And if they say yes, I ask what was your experience like? Unfortunately, I hear more horror stories than I do positive stories, which is typically why they end up with me, and those are around. You know, I feel like I traumatized my therapist or she told me that she couldn't see me anymore because it was too, you know, too heavy or too gory or whatever, or she was asking me about. She didn't understand the shift that I was doing or the shift work I had, or couple therapy. She kept saying why can't you just be home more? Things like that are red flags. If you have a therapist and they say they're culturally competent and they say any of those things, please run. That is not culturally competent.

Speaker 2: 8:42

That's culturally incompetent.

Speaker 1: 8:45

Yes, yes, and that's something And's culturally incompetent.

Speaker 2: 8:46

Yes, yes, and that's something.

Speaker 2: 8:48

And it can do damage. Yeah, and that's something to definitely want to look out for. If you do start experimenting and interviewing per se therapists, what is well? So, to get to the main topics of today, like, I definitely want to touch on the importance of therapy for mental health. Again, we've touched on, but breaking the stigma, how we can overcome that and what we can do to lead into a new future for the fire service. And then normalizing this type of therapy or treatment for first responders who are at any stage in their career, find that they need somebody professionally to talk to.

Speaker 2: 9:29

So I really have a high hope for this episode and I think we'll bring a lot of value to the listeners. So let's talk real quick. The nature of first responder work and most people listening they understand it's high stress, high consequence, likely time compressed, a lot of exposures to environmental things, emotional, traumatic type stuff. But what would you say from your experience working with us, what do we face that the general population isn't dealing with? Just obviously, being a firefighter, I know from my experience, but you've talked to more on a different level than I have, so yeah, yeah and and I don't want to discredit that I mean you live it.

Speaker 1: 10:15

So you're, these things are probably going to stand out to you and you're going to go. Oh yeah, I think I'm already thinking of someone that has that or struggles with that or you know has been to therapy. So wide range really I can't put everybody in a box.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I think when we think of first responder therapy.

Speaker 1: 10:32

We think of PTSD. Not everybody has PTSD. Not everybody comes to therapy because they are struggling with PTSD symptoms. So let me start from the outside and work in Cool, I do get a lot of people who are just working through personal relationship stuff. So this is stuff. I mean, yes, general population deals with it, but this is um different within this culture. So stuff around um, you know, communicating properly with couples, um, you know, infidelity definitely comes up. Things like I work with a lot of men, so I also work with you know sexual abuse or not, abuse addiction and pornography addiction is in there.

Speaker 1: 11:16

That high tolerance for that dopamine hit definitely comes up a lot. That dopamine hit definitely comes up a lot. So those are things more on the outside that are job related, but they aren't specifically work related, so they're more of the culture has brought these things up. And then obviously anxiety, depression those go hand in hand too. Then there's the PTSD right.

Speaker 1: 11:41

So typically it's not just one incident that brings someone to therapy when they're at a point where they're like I'm having all these symptoms. It is an accumulation of them over time, which I'm sure you've heard. You know the drop in the bucket. Each drop adds to the bucket and it becomes full. And a picture that I use a lot with my first responders is a cabinet. So everybody has a cabinet. You can picture like the Narnia wardrobe and in this cabinet and it's important you have one. This is where you compartmentalize, which is a term that is taught in the fire service, and you are taught to do this.

Speaker 1: 12:16

You're taught to take your own emotions, your own feelings, and you shove them in there. Anything that's happening at home, you shove it in there. So it all goes in that cabinet, and that's a good thing. That's so that you can do your job. The thing that I see um, that's the biggest problem with this cabinet is they teach you to put stuff in there, but they don't teach you how to take it out. So what therapy does is it takes those things out of the cabinet and we go ahead and process them so that that cabinet has more space so throughout your career you can continue to use it as a tool.

Speaker 1: 12:47

And what I see, unfortunately and you talked about preventative therapy, which is really important but I see people who you know again 10, 20 years into the job and their cabinet doors are hanging off their hinges, they are bursting.

Speaker 2: 13:01

Right, they got tie straps and everything.

Speaker 1: 13:04

Yeah, yes, they're getting hit in the head by things falling out all the time. And typically what that looks like. And I've had clients who say like, oh, I'm just very emotional for no reason, or I'm very angry for no reason, or I come home and I'm so irritable and I always say, well, let's take a flashlight and look in that cabinet and 10 times out of 10, I swear it is overfilled, because no one has taught them to take the things out and process them. So that's typically what I sit with.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Okay, that's so. That's. I've definitely heard the drop in the bucket. I liked the cabinet analogy that makes sense to me. There was a time where my cabinet was likely overflowing and I had it, you know, tie straps and everything I could to keep it close, um, but that's, that's kind of what led me to my therapy journey, so that I can relate to that. And you're right, though we are talked and told to well, get good at putting this somewhere else, buddy, cause we don't have time to to feel, we have to do, and that's true, right, we, we do need to respond and we have this job to do. But the unpacking and getting back to feeling, um, at some point, I think, is really important. And what, what would you say, is something that people might be feeling that would be like hey, maybe I have some stuff to unpack. How do they identify that? What does that look like?

Speaker 1: 14:29

Yeah, well, for men again. I work a lot with men.

Speaker 1: 14:33

I work with women too, and female first responders, but I would say the majority of my caseload is men, the men specifically that I see. They typically are holding a lot of anger, and whenever we look at anger, there's always an emotion underneath it. I actually have this wheel I don't know if you can see it that I bring out in therapy often and what it is is it's a wheel with all these different adjectives stemming from our core emotions. So, like anger is on here, but then if you follow it, there's, you know, tons of different words that, uh, represent anger. So typically when I see anger, um, I wonder if there's sadness underneath it, I wonder if there's grief.

Speaker 1: 15:17

Um and those are kind of the the typical emotions that I see up front and then with some work, and trust, in time, then we that is the emotional piece, I think, is.

Speaker 2: 15:33

I really wish personal beliefs here. I wish we were trained more as men but first responders, specifically on how to identify, deal with, make space for emotions and I'm 40 years old and I'm just now being introduced to and I've probably seen it in the past but the emotion wheel and being able to point out and discuss and describe and sit with those types of things. So that's is that that's something that people can learn in therapy. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: 16:09

Oh yeah, I.

Speaker 2: 16:11

I use it.

Speaker 1: 16:12

It's a lot of dark humor and sarcasm in my sessions and I think, that's what works well with first responders most of the time, especially men who don't want to go to therapy and they don't want to talk about their emotions. It's not a natural feeling, it's not something anyone signs up for, and women too. But I joke around with that wheel and say this is for my special clients. We don't know about their emotions, let's check them out together. Um, and typically we laugh and we look at the wheel. But yeah, I teach. I do teach that because most people I mean if you're feeling angry, you typically think, okay, I'm just angry, um, outside of a therapist's brain, you're not going. Hmm, I wonder if there's grief and sadness underneath that. Um, and it typically comes out, you know, when we do things like EMDR therapy it does it can come out with just normal talk therapy too.

Speaker 1: 17:01

But I will have a client sit with something they think they feel really angry about and we'll reprocess that memory, um, which is rewiring the brain. And when we're doing that they'll start to get emotion and I'll I'll be be able to tell and I'll ask them you know, I see that something's coming up for you. Is it an emotion? And they'll say yeah, I don't know why, but I'm feeling really sad. And I'll say that sounds like grief. It sounds like you have grief, you know, for this call or this specific whatever it is that we're working on.

Speaker 1: 17:31

And anger, you feel, is a mask, it's a protective barrier. It's also socially acceptable for men to be angry, but it's not socially acceptable for men to be sad. So we see anger a lot of the times interesting.

Speaker 2: 17:44

So real quick. You brought up emdr. It's a treatment modality. Um, can you give us a just a maybe a surface level idea of what that is and how it works and kind of explain the bilateral movement of the eyes and why that helps?

Speaker 1: 17:59

Absolutely. This is, unfortunately, something that is not explained well a lot of the times, and so it's this big question mark taboo, where people don't know what EMDR is. So I use a lot of pictures. When I speak, I think that, um, that's just how my brain works and um, it's how I explain things. Well, um, so there's a, two, there's two ways to explain. Um, I'll give you the Disney version and then I'll give you the other version too. So the Disney version is if you've ever seen the inside out movie yeah, I don't know if you have kids um, we did um, okay, but have you seen the movie?

Speaker 2: 18:35

yes, yes, I like that movie okay cool, it's a good movie.

Speaker 1: 18:39

So, um, it's these, these balls that are color coded in the girl's memory, right? So orange is like whatever, uh, excited, or. And then red is anger and blue is happy memories. So, if you think it, we have these different like categories of memories coming into our in our mind and our brain. Now let's say we have these trauma memories, right, and let's say they're black marbles. So they come down and they're black.

Speaker 1: 19:03

So if we can imagine that, what EMDR does is we take that marble out of that slot, the trauma ones, and we hold it in our hands together, and then what we do is we, we go back into the memory. So it's, this is exposure therapy and re-exposing you to whatever, um, that memory is. That's on the surface. And here's the interesting thing about EMDR is if we're working with something way up here, um, that feels like it's a surface issue, like, oh, my irritation in this one call that seemed to just like blow the top off for everything for me. We'll start there.

Speaker 1: 19:39

What I tell you every single time, it ends up down here. They all connect, everything connects. So we might start talking about a call. It's probably going to end up in your childhood. We might start talking about this over here, we might end the session over here. And that's because it's our brain, the way it works. It's all connected. So, going back to that marble, we're holding onto that marble, we're reprocessing that memory. By going back to it, number one, we're desensitizing. So no longer is it this big anxiety thing, because we're facing it together.

Speaker 1: 20:07

You're going back into it and our brain doesn't know the difference between actually thinking about that memory again and going through all the senses versus actually being there. So this is a scary part, I would say. The daunting part of EMDR is that a lot of people are like I don't want to go back there and remember these things that caused me panic or anxiety or depression or whatever. But we have to in order to desensitize. So we go back there together, we do it slowly, we do it together and then, um, we reprocess that memory by taking um the core beliefs we have about ourselves in connection to it. So there's always a personalization factor here, um, and we, we kind of like, switch the, the narrative.

Speaker 1: 20:53

We also, um, the goal is to get closure. So we're also giving our brain closure. Now, when it links back to childhood stuff, that's very powerful because we're going back to pieces that maybe have been broken or memories that we have not gotten closure, and we're going to go back and heal those spaces as well. So that's one analogy. And then the marble marble. When we're done with it, we stick it back in with the normal memory. So the goal of emdr is not I cannot erase your memories, unfortunately I would be rich if I could.

Speaker 1: 21:24

But what I can do with emdr is I can take any negative associations you have with that memory and can essentially take them away. So any triggers, any, um, like a common one I see a lot with, especially fire, is um, you know, you've got a call. Maybe it's, uh, um, a really gnarly traffic collision. Um, whatever it is. Um, maybe the kid in the back was the same age as your kid. Whatever it is, there's something that personalizes for you and you might avoid that intersection. Maybe you don't drive by the intersection anymore. So the goal would be to not avoid things or to feel triggered by things when you see them. So we're reprocessing. And then the other thing too is there's no answer, clear answer, on what affects you versus a coworker.

Speaker 1: 22:17

So you could have two firefighters working the same call, but one maybe will have reoccurring thoughts or ruminating about it or, you know, icky feelings or heavy feelings about it, while the other one doesn't. That has to do with our background, who we are, where we come from, all of that. So we don't really get to pick and choose who gets PTSD and who doesn't. Unfortunately, Sometimes a matter of time with the volume of calls and depending on like what kind of calls you run in your department.

Speaker 2: 22:47

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know certain people are, you know, we're all triggered or we all impacted by these calls differently. So that makes a lot of sense. What, uh what, what can we do for those people are that are next to us that are experiencing? This might be a really specific answer, but her question but what can we do for them in that moment, like if they are struggling and we have some SOPs and we're building a peer support team at my department, so we're we're learning all about this stuff, but like what's, what's the best thing I can do for my brother or sister next to me that they're visibly shaken? Uh, you know how can we be a support until we get someone professionally trained?

Speaker 1: 23:31

Yeah Well, number one I would say and I see this a lot is with that stigma. There's this teasing that happens in departments and sometimes it's like a tough love thing and there's something wrong with it. But when it comes to PTSD and you see your coworker visibly shaken, that is not the time to be like make a joke about it, right? That is not the time to be like make a joke about it, right. That is the time to be like hey, that was a pretty gnarly call that we were just on, are you OK? That would be the first thing. Open up conversation with them, ok. Also, it would be a great idea to partner with them in that Like maybe you're not visibly shaken but you recognize that they are and you can put yourself in their shoes and empathize, like, yeah, that must've been rough for you, cause you have a kid the same age as the kid that we pulled out or whatever it was.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Um, and talking about it is, uh, one of the first levels. So, um, I mean, think about like CISM I don't know if you guys have done any debriefings, if you're just developing your EAP, but, um, with you know debriefs, you go through the incident together, you just talk it through, you talk it out, you air it out. That is the first level and that's wonderful and you can do that without therapy, peer support, you can do that with your coworkers, anyone you trust. The second layer of that is actually reprocessing the brain, and that's where you would want to get that person connected with therapy or with eap.

Speaker 2: 24:56

That's an option. Okay, good to know. I like action steps because you never you just never know right like any one of these calls could trigger anyone and there's, I know I've had some experiences in my my past childhood that people don't know about and any like a certain call could make me feel a certain way and, you know, maybe they don't know what to do. Like a certain call could make me feel a certain way and, you know, maybe they don't know what to do.

Speaker 2: 25:15

So I think just a couple of steps, but yeah, meet them where they're at, talk about it, you know, I think that's a great step. What?

Speaker 1: 25:24

would you say, and it's human.

Speaker 2: 25:25

Yeah, that's absolutely. It's absolutely a human. What do they say? It's a. You're having a normal reaction to an abnormal event, right?

Speaker 1: 25:36

Absolutely yes.

Speaker 2: 25:37

That's definitely something I've heard in the past. What would you say are some common misconceptions that you've come across that first responders hold about therapy?

Speaker 1: 25:50

That it's a waste of time, that it's a waste of money, right? That they're not going to understand me? Um, I've had a bad experience in the past, so therefore all therapy is bad. That? Um, why would I pay someone to talk if I could just call a friend? Um, there's a lot.

Speaker 2: 26:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:10

Any of those? Yeah, or I signed up for this job. Um, um, I should be able to handle it. Um, I don't need therapy.

Speaker 2: 26:17

my symptoms will go away on their own, okay so that that one, the one you just said, uh, I signed up for this job, I should be able to handle it? I kind of want to dig into that. Because why? Why do we and I understand, from my perspective, that I'm just a human there's some things that I'm not going to be able to handle. There's some things I can that other people can't, so no big deal. But why do we think we're so impervious just because we took this oath and show up to to run into burning buildings and do this cowboy type job? Where does that stem from?

Speaker 1: 26:53

Yeah, well, I mean, it is part of the job. So I was actually just sharing this on my Instagram story, I think yesterday or the day before. But as a first responder, your job is to be a rock for the community, right? So you're seeing people on their worst days and you have to be the strong one, um, emotionally, physically, mentally, that is your job. When you get home, for those of you that have families, you have to be the strong one for your families. Um, it's almost like this um identity shift that happens once you become a first responder, and I think as a man, it's typically something that's there, naturally, but once you become a first responder, it's almost um, solidified, and then also like volumized. So it's um, it's all the time and um with. So I'll circle back to the question too, but in therapy, it's really important that the first responder doesn't feel like they have to care for the therapist. So this I always tell them hey, you don't need to care for me, you don't need to um, you know, shield the details from me.

Speaker 1: 27:56

You don't need to shield your emotions from me. This is the one place where you do not need to be serving other people. Um, and I and I see that a lot. I think it's part of the stigma too is that I have to be strong or I have to pull myself together. I can't lose my shit, or I don't know if I'm allowed to say that I can't list it in front of people because I'm supposed to be the person that has it together.

Speaker 1: 28:16

I think that's part of the stigma. And then obviously we can go back in history and look at how firefighters in the past dealt with mental health.

Speaker 2: 28:23

They didn't?

Speaker 1: 28:25

You know, pull up your boots, keep going. What's up with you? You know probably a lot more of that tough love that we talked about.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Probably a lot more of that tough love that we talked about. Yeah, the tough love thing, that's definitely. It was there. I know when I joined the fire service it was there and that was 10 years ago, but it's definitely going away and I think it was worse 15, 20, 25, 30 years ago and even harder for women Then. I can only imagine so anybody, all the ladies up there more power to you guys are rocking, because I can't imagine how challenging that was then, because I know it's not easy now.

Speaker 2: 28:58

Right oh yeah, yes and that's absolutely I think that self-image that we need to be the rock, we need to take care of the people, that adds to the challenge, the stigma of saying I need help. Right, we're, we're supposed to be the, the heroes, the, the solid people. So it's I don't know it, there's something about it. This is hey, put your, put your sword down and and rejuvenate and rest and take care of yourself. That we just ignore. I feel like yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:33

and also, when you think about I think about like debriefs you know you never want to be the first person that raises their hand and says, yeah, that really bothered me or that's out with me funky. We typically look around to see if someone else is brave enough to share that first, because of that stigma, no one wants to be the guy you know that's like oh yeah, that really bothered me. Um, I really love to see, and I've seen it actually a lot recently um.

Speaker 1: 29:57

I've gotten a handful of new clients and they are guys that are in their probationary period. So you know straight um at a tower and they are recognizing that they need to get on top of it. Um, more so as a precaution. Oh, am I still here?

Speaker 1: 30:15

yeah, you're good I know, okay, I got a phone call, my god, oh, no, yeah, that's okay thing and um they, instead of you know, coming to therapy, be after the fact when they start to realize that they're having some of these symptoms. So I'm really happy to see these younger guys coming into therapy. I think that it's um really powerful to see that shift in the culture that we didn't have, you know, five, 10 years ago.

Speaker 2: 30:41

Yeah, that's and that's I do some. Speaking to the new recruits, I'm like, hey, you gotta get a therapist just and not because there's something wrong with you, but because the same reason you have a tourniquet right Like you have them in case you need them. You don't need them and then hope you have them.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Exactly, exactly, or gas in your tank. Right, you're going to put gas in your tank. You're not going to be like, oh shoot, run out of gas. Now my car is broken and so I'm just going to sit here and be broken and hide it from everybody. No, you're going to go get gas and fill up your tank.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Right, why'd you walk?

Speaker 1: 31:13

to work today.

Speaker 2: 31:14

I just needed some steps. You live two hours away, right? So what can our leaders do? What can we shout from the rooftops for the leaders and the administration and the fire service to start opening up this dialogue and making it more for the people on the front line?

Speaker 1: 31:37

it more for the people on the front line. Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of solutions to it, or I don't know if we call them solutions, but things that could be helpful. Um, one of it is obviously, uh, people learn by example. So people in leadership to be able to say hey, I went to therapy. You know, these are things that I've struggled with. Um, this is stuff that's very common. You don't even have to personalize, you can just say this is stuff that's very common, that we see a lot and that normalizes, so that normalization is really important to do I can't tell you how many guys I've sat with and I'm like, hey, I see this all the time.

Speaker 1: 32:09

They're like really, I thought I was all the time. Um, that's a really great thing to be able to do. Um, I also really like some departments will do mandatory therapy uh once a year as a check-in. So I mean, some people have good feelings and bad feelings about this. It depends on the therapist, right? Um, some people will dread it, but I do think that just the like yearly, I think sometimes they do it quarterly too, where it's mandatory you have to sit with the department psychologist or therapist and just do a check-in.

Speaker 1: 32:41

make sure everything's good, make sure you're sleeping, eating all the things, exercising all of that to you know be a whole person. And I've seen people do those check-ins and then realize, oh shoot, my check engine light's been on for a long time. Yeah, you maybe don't recognize it, so I like when departments do that as well. It's not necessary, but I think it's helpful. But one of the biggest things is just talking about it normalizing, not putting people down, teasing them, discrediting them if they are struggling with mental health.

Speaker 2: 33:17

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's no room for jokes when it comes to our mental health. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's no room for uh, for jokes when it comes to our mental health. Not, not, not in the culture we have right now. And I know it's. It's evolving and it's getting stronger and more robust. But I think I think you're right we got to keep make sure we pick those people up and if you are struggling out there, reach out. Uh, there's no shame in it. I have a therapist we're talking to a fantastic therapist right now. So message me, message her EAP at your own department. Just don't be afraid, you're not alone. There's a lot of people doing it. It's a cool thing to do. All the cool kids are doing it.

Speaker 1: 33:48

Yeah, I don't bite, it's not that bad. I always tell my therapists or my therapists, my clients too is you can come to one session and if you absolutely hate me or you hate therapy, don't come back. It can't hurt. Do one session, see if it helps, and I rarely had anyone not come back. People will do one session and go whoa, that felt really good. Number one have things normalized. But number two to have a goal that we're working towards, to know you're working on something to create change. Um, so you're no longer stuck in it. And then that hope right, that hope is something that's, that's a really important piece. So, um, do one session. If you hate it, you don't have to do anymore.

Speaker 2: 34:26

Exactly, give it a shot, get that rep. I always say on here get, get your reps, guys. If you got to get your 10th rep, you got to take your first rep. So you mentioned something normalizing and I want to normalize therapy in the fire service. What is so valuable about talking to someone who's trained to listen? What does that do for us? Because in my experience, the therapist is very capable of listening and they they validate and they have a conversation and they hear you. And when you leave that session do you just feel like I didn't do much, but I feel like a weight has lifted, I feel lighter some sessions, well sure sometimes the other times you need a kleenex or two yeah, sometimes you feel like you got ran over and backed over again.

Speaker 1: 35:19

I mean, that's, that's the hard work, that's how you know it's working. Same in the gym, right.

Speaker 2: 35:24

Right.

Speaker 1: 35:24

You have some sessions where you leave and you're like damn, that felt really good. And you have some sessions you leave and you're like I'm dragging my coming Right.

Speaker 2: 35:30

So um same, um you know with therapy.

Speaker 1: 35:42

I feel like, yes, obviously there's like that stigma that's there and um, it's important that you know guys are going, but it's it's not so much just listening and validating Um, those are important pieces, but a friend could do that for you. Um, to me that's like me therapy. You know, if your therapist is like, oh, you know, it sounds like you feel this way, like, oh, that's fine, I feel like that's fine therapy.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Um, in my opinion, especially for first responders, it has to go deeper than that. So, um, my approach to therapy is very goal and directive.

Speaker 1: 36:16

So, we're going to come up with a list of goals and of what we want to work on, and we're going to have a hands on, I guess, tactics for how to reach each goal. It's collaborative, so we're going to work together. My brain is trained to hear the things that you are not saying. My brain is also trained to put pieces together that you're not saying. My brain is also trained to put pieces together that you may not. So here's an example I like to use a lot Backing up a rig, backing up a trailer.

Speaker 1: 36:46

You need someone on the outside because you have blind spots, right? You can't see everything from your mirrors, even if you have all your mirrors available. So therapy is the same. We all have blind spots. There needs to be someone on the outside that says hey, did you see this right here, I don't think you caught that. So I'm I'm trained to see the blind spots. I go to therapy too. My therapist points out my blind spots. I cannot see as well. So that's a big part of it. And then the other piece, too, is I'm trained to know how to rewire your brain. I know how the brain works. I know how first responders brain works and I can show you and teach you ways to rewire your brain.

Speaker 1: 37:24

So there's changes that are being made. If you find that you're going to therapy and you're just talking every single week and no changes are being made, to me that's a red flag. At that point you need to talk to your therapist or you need to find a new therapist. Um, because there needs to be. This is not it's not a hangout session. I tell all my I love my clients, I have good relationship with them. We laugh dark humor, you know, get through the hard stuff together. We have a relationship and that's important. But we're doing the work together and every session they leave they're like we're doing work nice um, yeah, there's never.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Um, there shouldn't be at least sessions where they're just like feeling like they're venting because again that's something you can do with a friend or a coworker. Um, it should be different, especially with the time you're taking to do therapy and the money that you're typically spending to do therapy as well.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Agreed that that's a really good recommendation, and so you you stated that you are certified to work with first responders is is there anything else that first responders should be looking for specifically? Um, because I mean, since you're in california, not everybody that I work with can call you uh, luckily, or else you know you might be real busy, but like yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:38

So, uh, things to look for is um number one. You want to do a usually a consultation, so they're typically like a 15 minute phone call with a therapist and, um, you get to know their personality. But the questions that you might want to ask are how long have you been working with first responders? Why do you work with first responders? What kind of training do you have to work with first responders? If they don't have answers to any of those or their answers feel funky to you like, oh, we don't really have any training. I just really like first responders and I think they're interesting Red flag Because, unfortunately and this is what I see from a therapist's perspective too is that there are a lot.

Speaker 1: 39:18

I don't want to say a lot.

Speaker 1: 39:22

I think that therapists and coaches see first responder culture as something that's marketable because it is such a closed community and so they think once they get in, they're going to be able to you know, always have clients or whatever their you know their motivation for working with first responders.

Speaker 1: 39:42

So that would be the first thing I ask is, like, what is your motivation to work with first responders? What is your experience with working with first responders? What kind of training do you have to work with first responders and then again you can try a session with them and if you're like that's weird, why did they not know this like very basic thing about working with first responders, you can decide if you want to see them more or if you want to be done with them and see another therapist. So you know, sometimes finding a therapist is like thrift store shopping, like you have to dig through the funky, weird stuff that doesn't fit, that looks weird, until you find the good stuff that's for you. And everybody has a different flavor. I'm not everybody's flavor, I'm some people's flavor and you have to find what works for you.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Agreed. That makes a lot of sense to me. So let's just say we've found a therapist as a first responder, we've decided we needed to do that. We have one, we've had our consultation and we want to move forward with that. What kind of therapy is available to us and what might a session look like?

Speaker 1: 40:42

Yeah, it's going to be different for every therapist. Those are questions you can ask during consultation, that 15-minute phone call, and typically they'll answer. You know, this is what it looks like I can answer for myself. So the first couple of sessions I call that dumping out the puzzle pieces. So think about you're coming, you're dumping puzzle pieces in front of me and what I'm doing is I'm going ah, here's a corner and you're going, here's another corner, and we're kind of starting to create this picture together. Um, that's like the first couple sessions, it's an upload of information and that's normal because we have to have a relationship in order to do good therapy. So that doesn't come out of nowhere. We're not going to be like all right, welcome to the first session of therapy. Let's talk about all your trauma. That's not going to go anywhere.

Speaker 2: 41:24

Right.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Especially for a first responder who doesn't naturally trust. So we have to slowly put those pieces on the table. That's the first couple sessions, cool. Then we also, with those pieces, like I said, we're creating these goals. So what are these goals, or what are things you're?

Speaker 1: 41:40

noticing you want to work on. We kind of do very like surface level work, like, okay, you're not sleeping well or you're not decompressing after shift or you're having you know troubles in your relationship. Then I jot these things down and we start to, one at a time, kind of hone on them. The more sessions we have um, that's typically what the beginning of session looks like. Middle or sessions, middle sessions, I guess. Um, it's different for everybody how long it takes to get to this space. You're typically comfortable with your therapist, you're able to show emotion comfortably, ish, um, yeah, and you feel safe sharing you know vulnerable parts of you. That's middle End of therapy. You end up not having things to talk about anymore, or you reach your goals and a good therapist will always point these out to you. I always do this with my clients. I'll say you've reached your goals, your sleep is better, your communication is better. I've seen you the last three weeks and you have been doing amazing.

Speaker 1: 42:39

How do you feel about taking a break from therapy? How do you feel about you know, doing once a month as a check-in and if you don't need it, you cancel it? That's typically what I bring up. Um, I think the therapist should bring it up. But the client can too, if they feel like they're in that space, and ask their therapist where they think they're at.

Speaker 1: 42:55

But my goal is not to keep people in therapy forever. My goal is to teach you the skills, just like a personal trainer in the gym. They you shouldn't be with your personal trainer for your whole life. They should be able to teach you the fundamental things and then, if you need to check back in with them um, or you're having a hard time, you know you're struggling with something you check back in with them, but they should be giving you the tools. Same thing with therapy. Once we deal with those things we've done with, we're done with those goals, then we space it out, let your brain process a little bit and then later on, let's say a year later, a few months later, you, you have a hiccup in the road. Then you come back and it's not a big deal, but, um, that's typically like the, I guess therapy typically like the, I guess therapy from start to end, roughly.

Speaker 2: 43:39

That sounds like a good approach and I like the puzzle pieces thing. That makes a lot of sense and maybe you know, developing that relationship and building that trust would be beneficial for us to let our guard down and start talking to somebody. So that's definitely a key ingredient. What would you say? Or from your experience with your clients? Obviously you can only speak from your experience, but, um, what? What do you see improving over time through therapy?

Speaker 1: 44:08

well, depends on the client's individual goal, okay. So, um, like I said, if that person's goal is, let's say, like mood management, let's say they come home from their shifts and they're just irritable they come home and they're like I just don't want to be around people.

Speaker 1: 44:24

um, I isolate all my days off, I have a hard time being around my kids or my dog or my wife or whatever that looks like. Yeah, um, that is something that can be helped with therapy and it does absolutely get better with therapy and we typically find the root cause of it and then we start to do some more like applicable actions, right. So like, hey, let's practice this, let's work on this. I guess other things anxiety, depression, no motivation to go to work, and then obviously, like PTSDd, like we talked about. So nightmares, uh, reoccurring thoughts, um, avoiding certain spaces because of calls those things do get better with therapy.

Speaker 1: 45:04

Um, couples therapy, relationship stuff um, I see a lot of people who have struggled with infidelity and couples who have worked through that and been able to rebuild their trust through therapy. So, from my seat, I'm extremely, extremely blessed and honored and humbled to sit with the people that I sit with all day long, because I get to see them transform their lives over and over and over all day long, and I love it. It makes me so excited and I was just telling a new client I had yesterday who had come to see me really struggling and just scared scared of therapy, didn't want to be there, scared of what it looked like, and I told him.

Speaker 1: 45:47

I said you know, all these things that you're bringing to the table right here, all of this can be worked on, all of this can be changed, and I'm excited because I've seen people change this and I've seen how it's changed their life and it's going to change your life too if you stick with it. So again, that like ability to instill hope is really important.

Speaker 2: 46:04

Yeah, that hope is that's really important, and I can feel that from you right now like that hearing you say that somebody brings you all these fears and concerns and the things that are just drowning them and to have somebody confidently say, hey, we can dig into this and make a difference, we can get you through this together. I think that to know you're not alone and to know that there's someone out there who's just excited to help you definitely makes a big difference.

Speaker 1: 46:30

What what kind of?

Speaker 2: 46:32

Oh, you're fine, Go ahead I just said absolutely. Sorry, I try not to talk over people, but it just no it's okay.

Speaker 1: 46:40

I think it's just because I can only see myself on my end.

Speaker 2: 46:42

I know, I know I can't tell when you're going to talk. I'm so bummed. We've been doing fantastic, we're having fun there. What kind of advice would you give to a first responder, fire police? You know high-stress. They're contemplating going to therapy.

Speaker 1: 47:05

I'd tell them to do it. I mean, I'm trying to think of a better response. I would say get on in there.

Speaker 2: 47:13

Right, that's what I'm telling people Like hey, start tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 47:16

Start yesterday Again. I know it seems scary. It's interesting when you think about going to therapy. It's a very isolating and alone feeling. You feel like maybe there's something wrong with you. You are going to therapy. I like to share this with my clients a lot too. Like you said prior to this, it's not a I'm alone doing it. You and I are doing the work together. I've got the flashlight and we're linking arms and we're going to, you know, check everything out in the cabinet together. Um, it's not, it's not a you thing. And I always tell my clients you know, we're going to stick everything in a jar with the lid on it and we're going to leave that jar here with me.

Speaker 1: 47:55

You're going to dump it with me, leave it here, and when we come back I'll open that jar for us, but when you're not with me, we don't open that jar. And that really helps, using the strength that first responders have of compartmentalizing, to kind of be able to keep the work here that we do together and not have it run into their day-to-day life. And that seems to work really well too. But I would say, if someone's contemplating it, take those first steps. The first steps is looking or reaching out, and again, anyone can reach out to me. I can find someone in your state that is a great therapist, and then there are resources outside of EAP, so I think that's important for me to share on, please do.

Speaker 2: 48:34

Okay, so that was my next question.

Speaker 1: 48:37

Okay, I'm skipping to it. Perfect. So EAP is great, it is a readily available option, but it's not always the best option. I'm not going to lie to you. The reason it's not always the best option is because you don't have a lot of option on who you work with. So your department might not do a very good job with picking someone who's culturally competent, Unfortunately I have heard that. So that sucks. If you get stuck with someone you're like you're a crappy therapist. No one wants to do that.

Speaker 1: 49:10

So the other thing EAP is confidential. But they also keep number record of who goes to therapy. So if at any point you're having mental health problems, that can be brought back up. So I know a lot of first responders who don't want to go to eap. Even though it is right, quote unquote confidential, it can typically be brought back up. It is. It is linked to your like work id number, um. The options outside of that um was me what I do. So I work with a number of non-profits. Um. The overwatch collective is a profit of a non, a nonprofit I've always worked with. They work with first responders that 40% of five and it goes all the way down to 10%. So you get a lot of discounted sessions and it's helpful because it's almost like a like a insurance company stepping in and paying and you only have a copay.

Speaker 2: 50:18

Nice.

Speaker 1: 50:18

Right now they're not taking on clients. I think they're hoping to this quarter. They had a funding situation that they needed this quarter. They had a funding um situation that they needed to make sure they had enough funding to take on more clients. So they also see um. I think they have a clinician in almost every state right now Um someone who's been vetted. I helped do some of their vetting, so I've had my hand in um picking the therapist for that too.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Um, the other organization I work closely with is called Next Rung. They currently are taking on new clients. They're amazing. They're out of Ventura, california, and it's two firemen who own this nonprofit and they will pay $150 towards the first six sessions. So you have a copay of like 50 bucks, depending on what your therapist charges. So, and then after that, if you need another six sessions, then they'll meet you halfway and they'll say, hey, we'll pay half of the session If you pay half. There are probably more nonprofits than that. Those are the two that I work closely with. Um, and most of my clients go through them. The other thing is you can do a super bill, but that goes through insurance and there is a record at that point too. So I think that's just important to know if you're a first responder.

Speaker 1: 51:29

Another thing that's important to know and ask a therapist, talking about confidentiality, is ask your therapist if, for some reason, your notes ever got subpoenaed from my work, what would that look like? And the reason why it's important to ask that is because some therapists are like I'd give over all my notes. I would not get over. Give over my notes. Um, I would give a summary of very bare minimum. I see this client on um this frequency since this date with this diagnosis, and these are our goals. I would not be giving them the nitty gritty ins and outs of things they tell me in session. It's not appropriate. So it's important. That could be an important question. You ask a therapist when you're trying to find someone that is going to be a good fit for you.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Yeah, that goes a long way, especially when you're trying to develop a trusting relationship and you want to be vulnerable and share that stuff.

Speaker 1: 52:23

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 52:24

Well, I really appreciate all of this information that you've been sharing with us today. It's been a pleasure to have you on. I think what you're doing is phenomenal. Working with this group, my group, my brothers and sisters. Working with us is probably a challenge too, because I I know that there's so much going on there, but you're doing an excellent job and I appreciate what you're doing, so thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 52:51

Um, everybody out there listening, don't be afraid to to stand up and get out there and seek help as you need it. I know the stigma is scary and there's fear there, but reach out to destiny, reach out to me. Reach out to me. Reach out to overwatch collective. Reach out to next rung. Ask them questions. Um, experiment, get in there and have that consultation with a therapist if you can, uh, or if you need it. Right, and, and hopefully this, this podcast episode has given you a little bit of a eyeopening experience with what therapy could be like. So, destiny, I really appreciate you making time to come on. I know we've been scheduling on and off for the past couple months to get you on here and we've had nothing but challenges today. Even so, thank you so much yeah, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 53:40

It's a it's an honor to be able to talk with you absolutely well.

Speaker 2: 53:44

I appreciate everybody listening to priority traffic podcast. Hopefully there was some value you guys got out of today's episode. I know I learned a lot again, destiny, thank you so much, um, from the bottom of my heart. I appreciate everything everybody does. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, check out all of our resources. Follow, subscribe, check out all of our resources and if you have questions, please don't hesitate to reach out. We're here to help. That being said, thank you, and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.