SMALL TALK REMOVED

Chris Warden (02:01.275)
Heck yeah. So how did you come up with your humans over hardware? And you know, tell me about that. I'm excited to hear about it.

Stephen Scrobe (02:08.75)
Yeah, so with the Humans Over Hardware, it's been, this has been a development for O2X for a very long time. And it's the principle, it's really one of our core principles when it comes to what we provide, in that you can go out and you can buy all the good equipment that's out there. And it doesn't make a bit of difference if at the end of the day, the people operating that equipment,

Chris Warden (02:22.619)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (02:28.155)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (02:39.182)
aren't mentally sound and physically sound and able to use it. It's in a crisis and a time of need when they get up there and it matters. If the person who has, you know, the Taser, the dog, the new car, like, it's going to be useless if they can't handle the pressure of the situation they're currently in, whether that's mentally or physically, and you can break down either way. But it's this overarching principle that we want to try to convey to agencies that...

Chris Warden (02:53.435)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (03:07.374)
It is way more important to invest in your people before you start throwing money at stuff. Because the money's going to be there, but do you want to just spend it on something like a vest or something like that, like additional vests that'll expire? Or a lot of times it'll sit, if you don't have the staffing, they'll sit in a closet collecting dust. Because you have minimal things that you have to buy, but when it comes to the extra stuff,

Chris Warden (03:10.139)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (03:30.875)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (03:36.462)
Investing in your people is never like that's something you can never take away. You can never take away that educational aspect of it Stuff can come and go like the equipment can come and go, you know The tactical gear can come and go but can you operate without it and still be proficient in your job? and that's that's a common thing that I think has been lacking because we've been looking for As a culture in general not even in law enforcement or fire service. We've been looking for that easy button for a long time to make up for

the shortfalls that we have with candidate selection and training and things like that. So we're like, how can we bridge that gap? And everybody's initial quick fix investment is to buy something that immediately says they're going to solve that problem. But in reality, the process, the process is a lot longer. If you really want a solution to the things that are issues in our industries, you have to look beyond the equipment. It's not equipment failures that are generally our problem. It's people failure.

It's lack of communication. You know, it's, it's not being able to maintain standards. Like, and that comes from your training and education and your investment in your personnel.

Chris Warden (04:46.747)
Big time. What are you seeing on the front lines right now with all your presentations? What are you seeing as a common challenge that people are running up to that's not equipment based?

Stephen Scrobe (04:57.422)
I think it's, man, there's a lot out there. From a retention standpoint, when it comes to training and education, I find a lot of law enforcement agencies specifically fired too. Actually, they have this common running ground where they'll get candidates in. They finally make it through the hiring process, and you know, when you're screening candidates, you start with a pool that could be 600.

Chris Warden (05:01.819)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (05:15.259)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (05:23.611)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (05:23.918)
You whittle that down and then eventually you might have 10 go to the Academy after all that selection, all that time and that effort that you took to make sure that they were the right candidate, all those man hours that it took to get there. And then you put them through the Academy, those 10 candidates, they go through your Academy. They're looking pretty solid. You might have a couple wash out during the Academy, physical reasons, test reasons, whatever. And then they go to FTO. Now you're looking at maybe eight candidates in FTO. You graduate seven.

Chris Warden (05:40.923)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (05:53.678)
Like you might have one washout or whatever, and then that person, those seven go to the road. And they're officers and then they get out there and they realize this just isn't the job they expected. And I think it's partially due to people coming in that don't have a significant amount of life experience, or not necessarily life experience, but difficult life experience where they've had to overcome.

trauma, they've had to overcome difficulties and adversities in their life. And they realize that there's a lot more to the work we do than what's initially billed when they're scanning the job description. Yeah, it's not that. And you have a lot of agencies that are also promoting like, hey, you'll get in, you'll get to a detective spot really quick. you get in, you'll move up to engineer really quick. Here, you can get on the search and rescue team really fast. And that's...

Chris Warden (06:33.531)
Yeah, the Facebook ad.

Chris Warden (06:41.979)
Right.

Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (06:47.726)
Honestly, some agencies it's like that, but a lot of places it's not the case. You have to put in your time and your due diligence and you have to do the work to earn that right. So I think when people get in and they realize that the red carpet isn't getting rolled out for them immediately and that the job is mentally tough, you have to be mentally tough in addition to physically strong to be in the fire service, to be in law enforcement. And that discourages a lot of people and they end up walking out the door.

Chris Warden (07:00.763)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (07:06.107)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (07:16.11)
you know, three months after they've gotten on their own. And you put all that time and effort and money into recruiting a good candidate that's now back being a manager at your local supermarket. Just because that's what they feel is gonna suit them best for their future. Which is unfortunate because we lose a lot of good people that if they just had a little bit more mental fortitude or mental resilience as we like to call it.

in O2X and they had somebody that could guide them, they could have a phenomenal career in law enforcement or fire service. It's just basically training these young recruits that they can do hard things and to believe in the cause and stick with it, to make a career out of it and not just treat it as a temporary position or a job that they're gonna try out until something better comes along. So that's been one common theme.

The other one is just the lack of knowledge when it comes to injury prevention. Because everybody likes to work out. A lot of our jobs are physical. We promote or try to promote, especially from the training aspect, this concept of staying physically fit so you could stay in the fight. You can never train too hard for a job that can't kill you. I'm sure you've heard that before. Yep. So I think that...

Chris Warden (08:11.195)
Mm -hmm.

Okay.

Chris Warden (08:32.603)
Yeah, we got a flag in our weight room that says the same thing.

Stephen Scrobe (08:37.774)
that's kind of an underlying theme for law enforcement and fires, you got to stay healthy to be effective at your job for the millions of health reasons that it helps with along the way. And, but I think when it comes to the injury prevention aspect and designing programs that are optimal for the job that you have or the task that you're applied to is a little different because your traditional like bro split, for example, you know, chest and tries back and buys like,

Chris Warden (09:06.139)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (09:08.334)
Phenomenal it works, but it was designed very specifically for bodybuilding So if you take that bodybuilding mentality into a tactical environment You're not necessarily setting not that it can't work, but you're not necessarily setting yourself up for the most success from an injury prevention standpoint because You're not doing this tactically sound movements. You know, you're not doing combinations of movements or lifts in multiple planes You know or awkward lifts and things like that off balance things core work

Chris Warden (09:36.731)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (09:38.574)
So as long as you're incorporating that and you have somebody guiding you in the right direction about what it means to have a well -rounded program, in addition to the other things like warming up and cooling down properly to make sure you're not ripping your muscles apart and hurting yourself in that way, I mean, that's gonna set you off for success in the long run. And I think that's what people forget a lot of times is that discipline to stay with it, with a program that's gonna be successful long -term.

Chris Warden (09:56.123)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (10:02.587)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (10:07.63)
rather than just trying to get those short -term gains that everybody wants.

Chris Warden (10:11.387)
Yeah, that's funny. I was just, we were just in the weight room yesterday and we did like the big three squat dead bench and we were just discussing how a lot of the time, like let's just use the squat for example. That's a really good movement that can train a lot of different aspects and you can see a lot of carry over. But now our culture nowadays is like competing in that movement specifically. It's like squatting the most weight in the world isn't going to make you a better firefighter. Like.

Squatting the right amount of weight for you with the other modes or movements in your program is where you're gonna find a lot of that sweet spot. We just literally had that conversation the other day, yesterday, and it's funny that you mentioned that, because we kind of discovered that along the way. It's like, we don't have to squat the most. We should be able to squat good, but do other things, like drag stuff, push stuff.

deploy hose, like we try to incorporate that kind of stuff into our training. Do you make any recommendations along those lines?

Stephen Scrobe (11:13.024)
Yeah, and that's really good to understand. Like a one rep max, it's a phenomenal test of strength. Is it practical in the fire world? Does your one rep max necessarily matter if you're pulling somebody who's OD'd in the back of a bathroom in the corner, stuck between the shower and the toilet? Like, yeah. Like, is it really gonna help you there? Maybe, but I mean, your core stability and your ability to move or drag is gonna help you a lot more in that case.

Chris Warden (11:27.067)
Right.

The toilet, yeah.

Chris Warden (11:36.571)
Right.

Chris Warden (11:40.507)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (11:41.582)
But yeah, I highly recommend like everybody should have five basic movements, all the five basic movements incorporated into your workout. And if you can hit those at least every single workout, you're on the right path. So you're looking at your squat, your hinge, which is your deadlift, your push, your pull, and then carry something heavy. Like for that core support and that core stability. And any exercise that's done with proper intention and attention is gonna be a good stability, core stability, should be a good.

Chris Warden (12:03.003)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (12:10.478)
core stability exercise, because that's a focus that I think we let go, because we just say tighten your core and then we leave it at that. Yeah, if every exercise is done with that intention as at the start, then you don't really need to do crunches or things like that, because it's built into your regular routine. But getting used to holding because your core and your abs are basically an endurance muscle, right? So you need to train them like that.

Chris Warden (12:14.747)
Mm. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (12:36.974)
like to train them to hold that tension and hold that rigidity of the spine so that you're supported so that we're not seeing the lower back and thoracic issues that, you know, plague all the heavy equipment, hose draggers that we got out there or like the belt from wearing the belt and having all that hip driven weight in the car for law enforcement. It's, you know, just concentrating on little things like that that can make a huge impact down the road because it's something I think a lot of people take.

granted but if you can incorporate those five things into every workout that you're doing and you can always emphasize one over the other each day, mix in a little bit of cardio here and there because that's important for heart health. I'm a big fan of that so just incorporating a little bit of that doesn't have to be an everyday thing unless your goal is to be a runner. Again it's a very goal -driven system because when it comes to the tactical mindset do you need to be able to run forever? No.

Chris Warden (13:22.459)
Right. Right.

Chris Warden (13:32.347)
Not forever.

Stephen Scrobe (13:33.838)
You don't, but you do for certain short spurts and for air consumption, it's extremely important. So, I mean, you can't ignore it completely. You can't say, well, we never run on the fire ground or, you know, in law enforcement, the longest I've ever had to run is a 400 meter sprint chasing somebody. Like, well, that's great. But when you catch them, like, where's your cardiovascular system at to bring your heart rate back down to make good decisions. And everything, like it all ties together. And I think if you focus too much on one element over another, you're losing the big picture.

Chris Warden (13:36.155)
Sure. Yeah.

Chris Warden (13:55.259)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (14:03.611)
Yeah, I would agree. And when it comes to running, like for me personally, I know if I run more, my VO2 max goes up. And if my VO2 max goes up, that means I can make my bottle last longer. So that's a correlation that I think a lot of firefighters overlook is I don't need to run. We don't run on the fire ground. Well, if you can run a seven minute mile or you can run a, you know, a 22 minute 5k, you might be able to get a couple more minutes out of that bottle. Cause your VO2 max is maybe it's 50 to 60, right?

Stephen Scrobe (14:33.55)
And that's really what you're looking for. People say like, what's a great cardio for weight loss? I'll be like, don't run. You're looking to lose weight, don't run. If you're looking to increase your cardiovascular ability and you're increasing your VO2 max, then yeah, absolutely. High intensity intervals, some high sprints, some little bit longer distance, like middle distance duration, like 400 and 800 meters, man, that's a great, great way to build that VO2 max up for when you need to rely on it, especially from a recovery standpoint too.

Chris Warden (14:39.515)
Right.

Chris Warden (14:47.867)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (15:02.235)
Sure.

Stephen Scrobe (15:02.926)
Because you're talking about getting back into the fight or like you have that long chase after a suspect and you know, you might be gassed and you you know, you probably know just as well as anyone from your years of service that once you're once you're exhausted and you've redlined like To say critical decision -making under stress goes out the window like at that point if you got a fight with a suspect You're just holding on for dear life Which has happened?

Chris Warden (15:06.075)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (15:19.547)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (15:24.379)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (15:29.019)
Sure.

Stephen Scrobe (15:30.83)
I've had that happen to me where you get that foot chase and then it's like, it's just you and that person all by yourselves for the next five minutes. And that's a long time to be wrestling with somebody when you've got nothing left in the tank. Yeah, hoping that somebody's going to show up anytime soon. That's something that a lot of people have to experience or make the mistake of before they finally realize how important it is. So I hope people start paying attention to that, the message and the errors that we've made in the past.

Chris Warden (15:36.827)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (15:43.515)
Yeah, I can only imagine.

Stephen Scrobe (16:01.294)
going forward, you know, this, this program that we, we built out, that the founders built out from O2X, it's built on that, that background and that experience. You know, it's not just some, some shit we saw on Instagram one day and said, Hey, that looks great. Let's try it. I think this is all like research based, scientifically backed, but also culturally proven in the field, right? These are the common, the common complaints. And they, they say all the time, like, you know, predictable is preventable.

Chris Warden (16:11.099)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (16:31.438)
And I hate to say that, like the problems we face in law enforcement and fire, they're pretty predictable. Like we know what's been plaguing us the last decade or so, like the problems that we've been having when it comes to, you know, mental health specifically, suicide rates amongst law enforcement and fire, cancer rates amongst firefighters specifically, you know, the kinds of injuries we're seeing in the field and the cardiovascular disease that we're seeing after retirement. Like these are known problems. Now, if you have...

Chris Warden (16:37.531)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (16:46.426)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (17:00.315)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (17:01.614)
problem like that, then you should be able to form a pretty decent plan of action to combat that. You know, for some reason, historically, we like to think that we're above that. And that, you know, we're different. Like we're, we're the beautiful and unique snowflakes that are going to change that trend without changing anything in our training. Which unfortunately isn't, isn't the case, but it's, it's nice that people are finally waking up and they're listening and they're, they're hearing that, Hey, maybe let's stop just.

Chris Warden (17:20.731)
Right, right.

Stephen Scrobe (17:31.63)
throwing pebbles in the ocean to stop the tide and actually go out and have an impact on the culture as a whole. Where we can make this the focus going forward where health and wellness needs to be at the forefront and not just an afterthought.

Chris Warden (17:49.979)
Yeah, let's set aside some money, a decent chunk, and start investing in humans over hardware up front and make it a cultural priority. Where did you, I know you and I sat down a while back and we had dinner and we discussed super cool quotes that you've collected. How did you come up with or where did the humans over hardware come from? Because it makes a lot of sense and it's a unique perspective.

but it's starting to become popular.

Stephen Scrobe (18:22.606)
Yeah, it is. And it's actually something that I wish I could take credit for it. But it's something that O2X, their phenomenal education team that they have, they came up with it for one of the presentations that they had, just as a thought. We've taken that concept for that specific group that we had that educational and training seminar for, and we've applied it over a broader audience and specified it for law enforcement for fire.

Chris Warden (18:39.323)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (18:51.214)
for communications for the military to try to, because every one of those is different. They're so unique in their own application to how they see that and how their command views them as well and their job title. Because you can't come in as a law enforcement officer and expect to immediately connect with what the fire service is doing. Very different job descriptions, right? We're not built the same. Our missions aren't necessarily the same. It has broader definition of serve and protect.

Chris Warden (18:57.947)
Right.

Chris Warden (19:13.499)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (19:19.598)
Absolutely, but when it comes down to the finite details of what we do in that job description, there's been conversations. But yeah, the humans over hardware, it's been there. I've actually been fortunate, you mentioned the quotes. Yeah, so when I started with O2X, I started as a lead instructor where I had the opportunity, that's where we met, like you said, to go out and...

Chris Warden (19:23.835)
Yeah, the task.

Chris Warden (19:33.243)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (19:43.758)
teach training and education workshops all over the country. And that's based on whatever those specific organizations want from a holistic view of health and wellness. And some of the people I found that I was out there with are just truly phenomenal human beings. Like just amazing people doing the most significant work you can think of in health and human performance and helping people better themselves. And me coming from a law enforcement background, a lot of times you show up in...

You're thinking like, what am I doing here? Like I just, you know, I just got amazingly lucky to be here and I'm not going to take it for granted. So every person that I had the opportunity to work with so far, I know to X, and I started applying this into my daily life as well with other people, that are considered experts in their field is what is the best advice you've ever gotten in your.

Chris Warden (20:15.675)
Right, exactly.

Stephen Scrobe (20:44.782)
Because if I'm going to be here, I'm going to take something home for me too. So just trying to put all of these amazing principles that these experts have learned over the course of their career, you get some amazing answers. And it's been very insightful about not only.

Chris Warden (20:47.227)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (21:04.526)
what they've been able to contribute to their field, but also how they view life and what they take away from really being these servant leaders and going out and serving those who serve. And being at the forefront of the solution to the problems that we face and how they see that. And I've gotten some amazing, amazing answers and a lot of them revolve around what O2X has at its core, which is that concept of self -care isn't selfish.

Chris Warden (21:34.075)
Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Scrobe (21:34.702)
You know, I mean, for all the great work that these these people are out there doing, like these professionals are out teaching, it's it's amazing to see how they they prioritize that, you know, you can't fill from an empty cup. Yeah, and that's just as true in fire and law enforcement, like if you you're giving your all every day, serving the public, you know, you're risking your life for a lot of times, people you don't know. And.

Chris Warden (21:39.899)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (21:49.851)
Definitely.

Chris Warden (22:01.819)
Right. Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (22:05.102)
probably wouldn't thank you anyway and you still go and do it, but then you're not taking care of yourself on the back end. Like how's that taking a toll on your body over a 25 year career? Yeah. When you're ready to retire and now you have that time that you're, you're supposedly going to get back for yourself or for the family. And I think the message there is that you can, you can thrive in all seasons of your life and your career.

Chris Warden (22:24.603)
Right. Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (22:34.798)
It doesn't just have to be after that retirement post, you know, and you're getting those pension checks and then, now it's finally time to relax and enjoy life and be the best, the version of me that I've been hoping to be for 20 plus years. Like you can have very positive, very healthy, thriving seasons of your life, personal life and your career at the same time with just a little bit of support and investment in yourself. That's a, that's a lot of what the...

Chris Warden (22:57.115)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (23:04.878)
the messages have been that, and some of them are deeply personal, some of them are a little off the top and kind of funny, but it's been very, it's just another little added bonus of getting to be a part of the organization.

Chris Warden (23:17.691)
Yeah, dude, I think being able to travel and do what you're doing is, and I've had a small taste of it, I've done it a little bit, and I think it's just so rewarding to be able to sit in a room full of amazing people who, like you said, go in, put their life on hold to go serve their community and just get to know those people. It's an honor and it's very humbling, I've noticed.

Stephen Scrobe (23:39.598)
Yes, very, very humbling. You read off some of the bios from people and they have triple PhDs, they're going to astronaut school currently, they're Olympians and CrossFit Games champions. It's like, wow, these are the people you want to pay attention to, including our physical therapists. They're all embedded and they're all culturally competent. So nobody that is coming there is straight out of school. They haven't seen anything yet. All they have behind them is a textbook.

Chris Warden (23:46.715)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (23:56.955)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (24:00.827)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (24:08.539)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (24:09.23)
Which again, not that you can't be a phenomenal coach at a young age or inexperienced, like you can be a great coach, you know, but to have that understanding of what law enforcement and firefighters have to go through, or military personnel and special operations forces, the life that they have to live and the particular kinds of stress that they're dealing with, like it's amazing that all of the history that our specialists have seen.

Chris Warden (24:12.475)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (24:27.739)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (24:37.102)
that they get and that expertise that they can bring forward to agencies when their only job now is to care for a law like a police department or a fire department.

Chris Warden (24:49.083)
Yeah, that's, go ahead, sorry.

Stephen Scrobe (24:49.166)
No, no, and you just see like leaps and bounds and the transformation of the people there when like they realize like, wow, somebody's here for me. Now, like, this is amazing because a lot of people aren't afforded that opportunity. I mean, I remember when I got into law enforcement, it was like, you had your problems. It was like, hey, find a way to deal with it. Like there wasn't much support, not on a proactive level anyway, obviously. Everyone usually has an EIP or occupational health. They get hurt, they get injured.

Chris Warden (24:55.579)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (25:00.027)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (25:18.734)
And then it's like, but you have to have something bad to happen before you can finally get some help or some relief, unless you're out there seeking it on your own. And I think the amazing thing about this program is that it's so proactive. It's going out there and it's offering help to people that otherwise wouldn't be looking for it because what I think you're in the same boat is we're pretty reluctant to go ask for help. Yeah.

Chris Warden (25:42.875)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (25:44.814)
I think a lot of times, and I know in the fire service as well, law enforcement, we don't like to go out and ask for people who are outside of law enforcement for any kind of support or resources. It's just not in our nature. We're supposed to be the answer to the solution, not a burden to someone else. And that's a cultural problem we've had for years. And it's awesome when O2X can go in and just offer these services to law enforcement and fire and just be like, hey, this is for you.

Chris Warden (26:02.811)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (26:14.158)
because we want to see you be the best version of you.

Chris Warden (26:15.795)
Yeah, the humans over hardware concept in and of itself is purely based on getting the people on the front lines, the resources they need to be the best they can be so they can serve their community better. What would you say the role of, I'm going to be specific with this question, what would you say that nutrition plays in the day to day resilience of an officer or a firefighter? And do you have any...

Just easy recommendations you can throw at some people who might be listening or curious about, I've got some fitness going, what can I do to eat better?

Stephen Scrobe (26:52.982)
Yeah, nutrition is a good one because you're never going to convince everyone at an agency that they got to start a lifting program or they have to start running faster and jumping higher tomorrow. There are some people that no matter how much you talk to them about the benefits of exercise, they just don't care. It's not something that they enjoy and if you don't enjoy it, then it's probably not something you should be forcing into your life. Now, everybody's got to eat.

Chris Warden (27:11.771)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (27:21.902)
And everybody can find easy improvements in how they eat also. Cause when you look at that holistic perspective of health and wellness, it's not all about how much you can lift and how fast you can run. You have your nutrition, you have your mental health, you have your sleep and fatigue management and your stress management, you know, and then nutrition's a big portion of that because that's the building blocks of where we're getting all our, all our information, like all our bodies taking everything in and creating, you know, that temple, that house, you know, and then you have like the strategies that we ultimately look for.

Chris Warden (27:28.283)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (27:51.982)
is we want you, first is the mindset piece of it where we want people to think in terms of performance and not in terms of weight loss. That's a common conflict because the first thing you hear when you hear the word diet is what? Yeah, lose weight. How many calories do I have to cut? How many carbs do I have to cut? How much weight do I have to lose to? Yeah, what do I have to get rid of, right? It's a very negative aspect.

Chris Warden (28:05.755)
weight loss. yeah.

Chris Warden (28:11.963)
What food do I have to give up?

Chris Warden (28:18.171)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (28:18.734)
everything about that sounds horrible. I don't like that. I love food. So what we prefer people would consider is like, hey, you have your performance goals or we'll get you some performance goals. Now, what is, what kind of diet is going to help you hit those metrics? And that's more important is having a goal first and then figuring out what we can do from a performance perspective to get there. Because if you're looking to increase your

Chris Warden (28:20.571)
It does.

Chris Warden (28:28.891)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (28:36.411)
Okay.

Stephen Scrobe (28:48.174)
deadlift bench squat, you're gonna need to put on muscle, put on muscle, you're gonna need a calorie surplus most likely, you're gonna be gaining weight. It's not about the numbers on the scale. We're looking for increase in body composition or that skeletal muscle mass and then decreasing that body fat and you might get a little heavier, scale might move up. It's not necessarily about the number on the scale. So it's about finding that perfect ratio of where we're at and then fitting all of those calories, fitting number one into that calorie window.

Chris Warden (28:54.171)
Sure. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (29:18.414)
And then we're looking for quality quantity and timing. So you want to aim for high quality foods, right? The better the quality that goes in, the better the quality that you have to build with. Right? So the way that I personally like to see it is your macros, your carbs, your proteins, your fats, build the house. The better quality you're using, the better quality. It's like building a house out of wood or concrete. Like the better quality you have to work with, guess what? The better quality of house you're going to get at the end of the day.

Chris Warden (29:43.227)
Right. Material.

Stephen Scrobe (29:48.398)
Now, the micros, the vitamins, the minerals, all those additives and the extras that we look for a lot of times, sometimes I think people look for those a little too soon, and they think that those are gonna be the answer, they're support. So they're like the tools that you're building your house with. Now, if you have calorie -dense food that's nutrient depleted, you're not gonna have a lot of tools to build your house. Now, you can build a house with a hammer, but it's gonna take a long damn time.

Chris Warden (30:16.635)
Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Scrobe (30:17.806)
Yeah, now if you have all those tools, you have those micronutrients built into your diet because you have nutrient -dense food, you know, that's of high quality, now that's gonna get put to use a lot faster within your system. And you're setting yourself up for success, and faster success, because you're giving your body what it needs to function on a higher level. And if you can follow those basic principles of always look for those higher quality foods that are nutrient -dense, not calorie -dense,

Chris Warden (30:25.851)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (30:30.651)
Gotcha.

Chris Warden (30:39.035)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (30:45.966)
You know, and you look for things that are generally colorful. That's nature's way of saying, hey, this is nutrient dense. If you look at your plate and it's all brown, probably an issue with that. And again, it's about not being so strict from a nutritional standpoint that you eliminate everything that you enjoy in life. You know, like sticking to that 80 -20 principle that we like to talk about that says, hey, 80 % of the time, feed things that are going to fuel you for performance.

Chris Warden (30:52.315)
Look at me.

Stephen Scrobe (31:15.694)
that are gonna help you optimize your body, get nutrients in your body, you're gonna hit your protein levels so you can support sustained muscle growth, and then 20 % of the time, enjoy yourself. But most importantly, don't feel bad about it. Like, just understand that that's a part of who you are. You want to enjoy life, you want to enjoy food. You don't want your nutrition to be a burden at any time, and you never want there to be a negative connotation.

Chris Warden (31:25.691)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (31:32.411)
Right. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (31:45.582)
to what you're doing. So when you eat, like when I go and I eat a slice of cake at a birthday party, I'm gonna enjoy every bite. I'm gonna be mindful that, hey, this is delicious and this is my chance to eat cake, so heck, I'm gonna enjoy every bite. I'm not gonna feel one bit bad about it. Because I think when you put that negative energy on something and then consume it, like that's basically feeding yourself that negativity. Instead of focusing on the positive, like, wow, this was delicious, this was my 20%.

Chris Warden (32:07.163)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (32:14.171)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (32:14.734)
of my bad diet and that's not so bad. Like if I'm gonna eat bad, this is worth it, 100%. I'll take that. And as long as that's not the habit, the 80 % is finding other delicious nutrient -dense foods that you can enjoy. That's a win.

Chris Warden (32:27.547)
Do you find when you give yourself that 20 % and you enjoy it guilt free, it ends, the next time it comes around, it's a little easier to maybe either not partake or you can go longer without having to have it because you get it when you want it.

Stephen Scrobe (32:43.022)
Yeah, and it comes to being, it's almost like a mindfulness technique in that, you know, a lot of people eat just to eat. They go out and they say, all right, I gotta find something. And then they just like, what do we got? We got chips. And they'll eat, before they're done, they eat half a bag of chips. But they haven't tasted any of them. Like they didn't bother to chew. They didn't, they're just as many as they can get in as fast as possible. Or like ice cream too. If people like ice cream, they'll go through like an entire carton or tub.

Chris Warden (32:47.291)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (32:55.643)
Right.

Chris Warden (33:02.619)
Right? And false. Right?

Chris Warden (33:12.027)
Crazy.

Stephen Scrobe (33:12.27)
or one of those little pints, which I've done before. But then a lot of times it's just because you're eating when you're hungry and you're just eating to be full and you're not actually tasting your food and like enjoying the meal. So I try to approach, and I teach my kids this as well. When you eat food, try to approach it the way a chef would, where you're trying to taste the flavors, taste the ingredients, like appreciate the work that went into a meal.

Chris Warden (33:20.059)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (33:41.883)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (33:42.19)
to make it taste the way it did, as opposed to just eating to eat. Yeah, just to get it over with and get it done with. Like, put your plate, clean your plate. Like, no, just deliberately eat with intention. Like, this is why I'm eating this meal. This is what I have here. Like, somebody made this for me. Like, even if it's myself, like, I want to know what I'm eating.

Chris Warden (33:47.131)
Alright, declare your plate.

Chris Warden (33:54.427)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (34:05.851)
Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to officers, I know the fire service, we get to sit down and have meals, but what are some of the common challenges that officers face when it comes to fueling on shift?

Stephen Scrobe (34:17.55)
Yeah, with the shift work, it can be difficult depending on what unit you're in or division you're in. We have everything. Like I was in canine, which I'm in a car all day with my dog. And when I'm not responding to calls, sometimes I'm responding call to call to call all night, right? Cause I'm at the beck and call of the agency. And if they're running, if they need a track, they need a drug search, I'm there. We're doing work. And then I just basically, it's glorified meal prep and me being prepared to be healthy.

Chris Warden (34:23.387)
Okay.

Chris Warden (34:41.531)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (34:47.182)
beforehand and if I'm not, options are limited because, you know, gas station sushi at three in the morning isn't really the best choice. But the only thing open besides that is that's it, really, you have fast food. So if you come unprepared to a midnight shift, you're going to be stuck with bad options. And when people drop off snacks at the police station to say thanks to us, and we do trust them, they're usually not.

Chris Warden (34:47.387)
Right.

Chris Warden (34:55.419)
Probably not.

Stephen Scrobe (35:13.806)
healthy, good options, their cookies, their cakes, their brownies, their something along those lines. So, again, not bad once in a while, but not something you want to make it a habit of all the time. And I mean, you know, detectives, they're desk ridden, but you have a nine to five. Good detectives are out working cases and they're out on a beat, but you have a little bit more of that nine to five mentality for a lot of them, for a lot of the admin positions as well, where they can make.

Chris Warden (35:16.442)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (35:21.371)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (35:38.523)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (35:41.902)
better choices going out to lunch and things like that. But a lot of that is also turning down the bad options. What's fast, what's easy, what can I get in an hour, rather than trying to meal prep a little bit and plan so that most of the meals you eat are healthy.

Chris Warden (35:49.083)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (35:59.566)
And it just depends road guys as well. Patrol, they're having the same problems. They're out on shift and it's whatever you can get between calls. And some shifts you are slow. Those molasses and the other shifts, you're just call to call, just working. And you might have time to stop in and grab like an energy bar and coffee, like, or, you know, a sandwich from Wawa or something. That's it. You just got to get in what you can, but...

Chris Warden (36:10.907)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (36:19.835)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (36:24.859)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (36:27.406)
A lot of that can be eliminated from just pre -planning and prep work. So that's a lot of the emphasis that we place for law enforcement. I'm sure in the firehouse, you're fighting a lot of opinions.

Chris Warden (36:39.675)
Yeah, you got four guys with different varying opinions. And if you can get in a crew that you've all kind of put together a consensus on, we want to eat healthy, we want to eat protein, we want to eat veggies, we want to eat fruit. That makes it a lot easier. And then we get to go shop, right? Normally we'll take a call while we're shopping, but we get to go to the grocery store and make, if you can make good choices there, you'll have better choices when you get back to the department or back to the station. So that's the challenge is purchasing the good food.

Stephen Scrobe (37:06.51)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (37:09.595)
to prepare and we typically make a list. So we have a little different than the patrol officer for sure. And we don't have to eat out of our vehicle. Yeah, what do you find is a common consensus now with police officers and sleep? I know in the fire service, sleep is kind of still neglected, it's not really prioritized and we don't always get it. So what is...

Stephen Scrobe (37:18.638)
Yeah, that helps.

Chris Warden (37:36.667)
What do you feel is happening with police and sleep right now?

Stephen Scrobe (37:40.974)
It's again, it comes, it's so specific to job description. We ignore it. We're terrible because we don't have as much of an emphasis on it, I think as the fire service does because you're working your 24 hour shifts, you know, and you're getting woken up in the middle of the night. Whereas officers who work a midnight shift will generally go home and get that opportunity to sleep during the day.

Chris Warden (37:50.619)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (38:00.411)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (38:04.411)
Okay.

Stephen Scrobe (38:05.742)
Like if you're working a 12 hour midnight shift, you get home, first thing is, you know, it's recommended you stay up maybe a little bit to, you know, kind of decompress and then, you know, get your sleep. Now, somewhere along the way, there was someone who said you can survive on like five hours of sleep for a lot of time and still function. And that is awful advice. Like that couldn't be further from the truth. Like your body needs, depending on your genetics, seven to nine hours of sleep.

Chris Warden (38:15.291)
Sure.

Okay.

Chris Warden (38:23.643)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (38:28.571)
Awful.

Stephen Scrobe (38:34.574)
And there's no beautiful and unique snowflakes out there that are like adverse to that. You need that as a human being. And every hour that you take away from that actually takes away from your ability to make critical decisions. Like your operational thought process slows down significantly for every hour that you take away from your seven to nine hours. Seven and nine for some people, seven for depending on where you're at, but like that's, that's your base. I know.

Chris Warden (38:47.291)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (39:03.15)
Every single workshop that I've gone to, I've asked who got more than six and I might get two hands out of 40 people. Like everybody else is six, five, four, somewhere around there. I think the average is like five and a half, which is just awful. And like it's not necessarily that, all right, you have a rough shift or you have a bad shift and you can't compensate for that.

Chris Warden (39:12.347)
Sure.

Chris Warden (39:19.931)
Yeah, that's scary.

Chris Warden (39:26.587)
Sure.

Stephen Scrobe (39:26.894)
on the road because you can do things like sleep bank where you build up sleep time before you go in and then you can recover on the back end if you build up with enough of what's called sleep debt and then you have an opportunity to sleep you can almost make up for it. So one or two times with that happening where you don't hit your sleep metrics is not the end of the world. But it's kind of like brushing your teeth where if you don't for five years and then all of a sudden you start paying attention to it.

Chris Warden (39:35.803)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (39:55.598)
you're not gonna make up for five years and not brushing your teeth. Like, yeah, it's a great place to start, but you might have some problems there that are not gonna be necessarily immediately reversible. So, it's something that the sooner you can pay attention to it, try to work that into your daily habits because even when it comes to muscle building and strength and conditioning, you're not building muscle in the gym. And people forget that. They're like, I gotta hit my gym session to make sure.

Chris Warden (39:58.491)
Right, you've got the problems.

Chris Warden (40:06.331)
Exactly.

Chris Warden (40:10.267)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (40:16.571)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (40:23.31)
I'm growing to make sure I'm getting stronger, to make sure I'm getting faster. And it's like, that doesn't happen while you're at the gym. And people forget that principle. It's like, that happens during recovery. And if you don't give yourself the recovery, you're not going to see any of that benefit from all the good work that you're putting in. Cause your body's continued to deplete and deplete and deplete. And now you're actually hurting yourself. Yeah. And you're injured. And then, you know, we always say what's more important, consistency or motivation.

Chris Warden (40:29.179)
Exactly.

Chris Warden (40:39.867)
Right, you're gonna just...

Chris Warden (40:45.755)
You're injured.

Chris Warden (40:53.979)
Consistency, right.

Stephen Scrobe (40:54.99)
Yeah, and if you're injured, it's impossible to stay consistent. You're not always gonna be motivated, you're not always gonna wanna do whatever workout you're doing or go to work or put in the time and effort, but if you can be disciplined about it, then you're gonna make sure that you're doing it anyway, and that's the key to success, is continuing to get in every day and doing the work. And you can't do that when you're hurt. People forget that, like, man, if I'm running myself into the ground and my soreness,

Chris Warden (40:58.747)
Yeah, for sure.

Chris Warden (41:05.691)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (41:09.819)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (41:16.571)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Stephen Scrobe (41:24.174)
You know, my muscle soreness is above a five, like we're even higher, like we're at an eight or nine and they're still thinking, man, but I got to get to the gym today. I can hammer out this, this one rep max workout. You're setting yourself up for failure. Like I'm telling you right now, you're not getting anything out of that workout other than giving yourself the high probability of getting hurt.

Chris Warden (41:31.867)
Right.

Chris Warden (41:36.795)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (41:43.291)
Yeah. And I think the discipline aspect, not only does it, you need to be disciplined to get in, hit your, hit your program, whatever that looks like for you, but also like if you're scheduled for two recovery days or active recovery days or rest days, being disciplined to hit those just as well is very important. And I think we forget that.

Stephen Scrobe (42:03.214)
And that's funny because that actually brings up one of those quotes that I had from one of the specialists and they said that discipline is the greatest form of self -care because it it forgoes what you want at the moment to give yourself what you want most.

Chris Warden (42:09.755)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (42:16.283)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (42:20.974)
And that's only found in discipline. If you can teach yourself to do that and to respect what your body's telling you along the way so that you can stay in the fight and you can stay working towards your goal that you really want, like long -term, that's the highest form of self -care that you can have. Because now you're listening to your body and you're not just doing what you want.

Chris Warden (42:21.115)
I like that, yeah. For sure.

Chris Warden (42:37.787)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (42:44.795)
Mm -hmm.

Absolutely.

Stephen Scrobe (42:48.174)
because we're only caught up in those immediate gratification things. Yeah.

Chris Warden (42:50.971)
Yeah, it's easy, right? Like our brain is not to be trusted sometimes.

Stephen Scrobe (42:55.502)
It's true. And it's funny because you look at, even on O2X websites sometimes, you look at the sexy stuff. It's the sandbag workouts, it's people doing the hard workouts, but that's only a minor part of what we do. And I think a lot of people miss that when they first go on the site and they see all these workouts and us throwing down on all the tactical populations and it looks awesome.

Chris Warden (43:04.059)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (43:18.747)
crushing it.

Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (43:21.966)
Like, and it's amazing to be a part of when you're actually there and the energy's through the roof, but so much of our program revolves around just that recovery piece and being resilient and listening to your body and how to like take care of yourself on the back end. I mean, there's nothing sexy about foam rolling. It's not, sorry, just not that exciting. Meditation too. I mean, I know it's more now breathing. Yeah. Like that's not the stuff that's Instagram worthy, but it's just as important if not more important.

Chris Warden (43:36.027)
Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah, breathing.

Stephen Scrobe (43:51.918)
than the work you're putting in on the strength side.

Chris Warden (43:54.267)
Absolutely. So now it sounds like we've kind of shifted into some stress management recovery stuff. Do you guys coach and do you have a pillar of performance when it comes to those type of tools as well for the Humans Over Hardware program?

Stephen Scrobe (44:09.326)
Yeah, we do. So we work in a lot of different aspects when it comes to mental, we call it mental performance, but it's broken down into that sleep and fatigue management because that's a large part of the recovery. It goes into mental resilience, which has to deal with dealing with trauma and high stress jobs. And then we have what's called mental performance, which is your ability to make decisions under stress, breathing control, attention control, all those things of operating within the moment. Because when you look at,

Chris Warden (44:37.435)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (44:39.566)
Stress management for law enforcement and fire. You're looking at it from two very different points of views. You have short term in the moment, I'm on the fire scene, you're making entry into a building for a search pattern, that kind of stress. Like shit is hitting the fan and we gotta find our attention and we gotta hold it right here right now. And still hope that our body's gonna hold up and do what it's supposed to do. Because there's that old adage like, you know, just rely on your adrenaline, it'll get you through.

Chris Warden (44:45.179)
Sure.

Chris Warden (44:52.443)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (44:57.531)
Right.

Chris Warden (45:08.923)
Yeah, sure.

Stephen Scrobe (45:09.742)
Well, very rarely the case. Not that there aren't instances where that's happened, I'm sure, but typically you fall to your lowest level of training. Like you're not rising to any occasion. And that's been proven in most cases. Now there are other exceptional times where people have done amazing feats, but typically it's you're going to rely on your last most recent training. That's what you're going to fall to.

Chris Warden (45:18.427)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (45:25.051)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (45:33.979)
Yeah, that's the exception, not the rule.

Stephen Scrobe (45:37.614)
So it's keeping that in mind and keeping up with your training is a part of that to make sure that you can perform in the moment when that experience comes. The other side of that coin is how is this affecting me over time? And how are we going to unpack that? And how are we going to learn and give people the skills to cope and to deal with that so that they can still be the best version of themselves on duty in a year?

Chris Warden (45:39.931)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (45:47.643)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (45:54.843)
Okay.

Stephen Scrobe (46:07.054)
10 years, 20 years, and then into retirement. And a lot of that, some of it in the short term has to do with cognitive capacity and bandwidth, like how many tasks can you hold at one time and still be able to function well? No, we don't. As human beings, the studies have shown that we don't operate with, we don't multitask well. Everybody thinks they like to, everybody thinks they're great at it, we're actually really bad at it. Human beings' performance declines significantly when your attention goes from one.

Chris Warden (46:18.171)
Sure, sure. Not very money.

Chris Warden (46:26.907)
No, no.

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (46:36.014)
thing to two things. And that's okay, as long as we realize that we admit that to ourselves and we say, All right, well, how can we, how can we control this in the short? Yeah. And that's just being giving yourself the ability to reset and refocus, you know, and then re attack and go after what we're looking to do. And, but you have to recognize first when that's happening to you. So it's that bodily awareness piece that we teach, you know, and in the moment, the best way to do that is that breathing.

Chris Warden (46:36.955)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (46:44.475)
I'm gonna get that.

Chris Warden (46:49.627)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (47:04.539)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (47:05.262)
that breathing exercises, things that are actually gonna make immediate physiological changes in the body so that you can set and refocus.

Chris Warden (47:10.875)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (47:14.715)
Yeah, sometimes people call that a tactical pause. It sounds like that's what they use in the fire service a lot is just to take a big breath before you get into your your initial size up or whatever that task may be.

Stephen Scrobe (47:17.742)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (47:29.102)
Yeah. Even with law enforcement, you seem about to get into a chase in a car, you have some big like something happen in front of you. And before you get the mic, take a big breath and a pause. Because if you don't, you hear somebody squealing on the end of a radio with a super high pitched voice and they're talking a mile a minute. And then they have to repeat themselves anyway, because dispatch is like, what did you just say? And everybody thinks like the world is ending because you're just stressed out.

Chris Warden (47:37.435)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (47:44.987)
Right.

Chris Warden (47:52.539)
What?

Stephen Scrobe (47:58.638)
It might not even be that bad. So those are some things that we try to work in, especially with the breathing, to try to help people recognize, reset, refocus, and just then use that thing, the breathing techniques to help bring their body back down to a baseline. So they can use their cognitive ability the way it should be and not just go online mentally and then where, you know, there's point and no return and they're just stuck in that loop of not being able to decide or act.

Chris Warden (48:04.091)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (48:14.619)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (48:18.683)
Yeah, recenter.

Stephen Scrobe (48:28.622)
which can be fatal for some people. Now, long -term, you have other initiatives that you can implement that take away that PTS. So as you're looking at your post -traumatic stress, not a disorder until it becomes a problem. Everybody in law enforcement and fire goes through PTS. We have post -traumatic stress. It's gonna come up. It's how you deal with it that either makes it into a disorder down the road.

Chris Warden (48:30.043)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (48:46.363)
Right, right.

Stephen Scrobe (48:58.414)
when it comes back or you kind of can mitigate that along the way and you can deal with it. And yeah, it's like filling up a bucket and then you put more taps in the bucket and relieve some of that pressure over time. You never have to spill over where the therapy is necessary. And therapy is not a bad thing. It should be like, should be used regularly by a lot more people. Should be a normalized conversation. Same thing with peer support. Same thing with journaling, meditation, visualization, like.

Chris Warden (49:02.715)
Yeah. Yeah. Offload that stress as you go.

Yep.

Chris Warden (49:25.627)
All of it, yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (49:27.662)
all amazing techniques, yoga nidra, guided meditations, all of these different techniques that people can employ to help guide them in that direction.

Chris Warden (49:36.987)
Yeah. And you mentioned tapping the bucket. I, when I think of all those tools, to me, those are all taps in the bucket. Like the more of those yoga, nidra guided meditation, breath work, therapy, journaling, just talking to someone like those are taps in that stress bucket that make room for the next incident where it fills that bucket to the top again.

Stephen Scrobe (49:58.702)
Yeah, and there's not, some people are like, what do you recommend? Is there one that's better than the other? And the one that I recommend is the one that works. So like the one that works for you and everybody's gonna be different. Like some people like the guided meditation, some people like yoga, some people like journaling, some people would never think to do any of these things. For some people, it's all about exercise, which is another form of mental scare, like getting out and being active is huge.

Chris Warden (50:02.715)
Right.

Yeah.

Chris Warden (50:21.243)
Right. Yeah. Yep.

Stephen Scrobe (50:27.054)
huge impact on your mental health. But people need is working out. It's way more than that.

Chris Warden (50:29.403)
Yeah. Yeah. And.

Yeah, it's not only is it a stress reliever, but it's that insurance for resilience, right? Like you might roll your ankle, but since you got well -trained ankles because you run on the side of the road all the time, you might get less injured than the next guy, right? So it works on both ends, I would say.

Stephen Scrobe (50:51.918)
Yeah, for sure. And it's just trying to find what works for you and what you want to continue to do. Because again, it's that discipline piece because you're not going to... You're going to want to do the things you enjoy. So if you can find one of those things that you enjoy doing, it's always going to be easier than forcing yourself to do something you're not. And then encouraging others to do the same thing so that you're not the weird one for doing it. A lot of people will question you for why you're like...

Chris Warden (51:03.195)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (51:11.899)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Warden (51:18.011)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (51:21.166)
or you ask people to do things and they're like, it's because you're the training guy. you're the health guy. But meanwhile, it's like, no, this is good for everyone. This should be the conversation amongst the firehouse, amongst the police department about why aren't you doing it. Same thing, especially with the sleep. I mean, everybody's really quick to talk about their workouts, their physical pursuits. We don't have a lot of people going in bragging about how they got eight hours of sleep last night.

Chris Warden (51:25.435)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (51:34.299)
Exactly.

Chris Warden (51:45.307)
That's one of the first things I ask my guys when I get in. How'd you sleep? I didn't sleep. Well, you're getting a nap today if you can, please.

Stephen Scrobe (51:49.71)
Right, but instead we seem to pride ourselves on staying up all night.

Chris Warden (51:56.187)
How did we get there?

Stephen Scrobe (51:57.87)
I don't know, man, but like, it's, man, I only got four hours of sleep last night. I'm real tired. Well, that's fucking great, but we have a real busy day ahead of us. Like, maybe you should go take a nap or a tactical nap or something like that. You're gonna be useless in about 12 hours. Like, have that conversation rather than bragging about how we got no sleep and, you know, we went out and ate freaking Five Guys burgers and fries. It's not the best start to your shift.

Chris Warden (52:07.387)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chris Warden (52:26.235)
Absolutely. So like, go ahead. Sorry. No, I'm just going to say with O2X, that's, I consider O2X being on the tip of the spear when it comes to changing culture and culture and changing the way we perceive, tactical athlete training. But how do you see the future of training and development evolving for police officers and first responders in general in the next 10 years?

Stephen Scrobe (52:27.502)
Make a special effort. Wow, you're good.

Stephen Scrobe (52:52.302)
I think there's going to be more an emphasis on this because I think the return on investment, like you're never going to go wrong when you invest in your people. When you can put, like, it's a lot different to say like, we had this money lying around and we decided that, hey, you guys can get this training because we have bonus money this year. That has a lot different way to it. When the agency comes forward and says, hey, we want to make you guys the best that we can.

Chris Warden (53:01.403)
Right.

Stephen Scrobe (53:19.822)
and we want you to enjoy not only your career, but your lives to the fullest, or we're gonna invest in this program for you. Those two statements are very different. And they're received very differently on the other end. If somebody came to me and law enforcement said, hey, we're gonna out roll this program that is not only gonna help you be a better law enforcement officer, but it's gonna help you be happier at home. Yeah, like really?

Chris Warden (53:25.243)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Chris Warden (53:31.739)
Very.

Chris Warden (53:43.067)
Yeah, double whammy.

I know, high fives all around.

Stephen Scrobe (53:47.47)
You know, do I have to pay anything for it? No, I don't. The agency's gonna do this for me. Like, I'm buying into that 100%. And I don't care who you are, if you have somebody who's dedicated to making you a better person, whose only job is to go in and make sure that you're following up with a program, that you have the resources you need if you have questions about where to go for mental health or how to eat better, you're going to see improvement throughout the year.

Chris Warden (53:49.819)
It's on us.

Chris Warden (53:54.619)
100%.

Stephen Scrobe (54:17.518)
like, and you don't see those burnout numbers. You don't see those early retirements. You see people wanting to get back into this job more and give up to the job more. Now you're showing up, you're at a hundred percent. You're not at 40 or 30%. You know, and that's the difference between going to work and thriving and going to work and just trying to survive the day. Cause I think a lot of us in the.

Chris Warden (54:27.259)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chris Warden (54:35.003)
Right?

Stephen Scrobe (54:45.262)
law enforcement specifically and in fire too. We're just there, we're there and we're just trying to make it through the day. Just make it through the shift.

Chris Warden (54:52.507)
Yeah, praying we don't catch that one call.

Stephen Scrobe (54:55.086)
Yeah, we don't have to deal with that or deal with this or deal with that person. And then rather than going in and really attacking your day from the start and being like, I'm excited to be here. This is going to be fun. You know, and we're going to make the most of this. And then I have something to look forward to while I'm there and that I'm supported while I'm here. I think that's a game changer for our industry. And I think once people see the metrics that we have coming back on how much improvement.

Chris Warden (55:05.243)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (55:12.411)
Yep. And those.

Chris Warden (55:20.859)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (55:23.854)
from not just a physical sense, but also a financial sense. Like for agencies, they're gonna look at this and they're gonna say, why haven't, why, and that's most of the conversations we have is why didn't we do this sooner?

Chris Warden (55:34.139)
Right. And dude, you mentioned that day where you're dreading stuff versus attacking the day. Those are two drastically different days. And that person is a drastically different tool or liability or asset to that department on that day. And if we have all of our, let's just say 75 % or just a large majority of our people attacking their days, you're going to see training, you're going to see good attitudes. The rumor mill is going to go away. Like that's a completely different department.

than when you have everybody just surviving and looking over their shoulder, hoping that they don't smell like booze when they get to work.

Stephen Scrobe (56:09.07)
It's true. And I just had this conversation with someone a couple of days ago that technically you're never the same person twice. Right? Because we're a compound of who we are and then our experiences and the lessons that we've learned that we've actually taken over time. And every day is a chance that we're somebody new. So every time we meet someone new, they're meeting a new person. Right? And you can make that choice to be that person every single day and wake up and want to be an answer.

Chris Warden (56:17.595)
Right. Right.

Chris Warden (56:32.059)
Absolutely.

Chris Warden (56:38.747)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (56:38.862)
and partner solution, or you can continue to ignore the problems that we've had over time and just keep hoping for the best.

Chris Warden (56:49.563)
We don't want that anymore.

Stephen Scrobe (56:50.798)
No, that line of thinking I think is archaic and it's eventually going to be going away. It's just going to take time like anything else. There's no easy button to answer. There's no piece of equipment we can get that's going to say, hey, this is going to solve our problem overnight.

Chris Warden (57:05.339)
I agree. So if there's an individual out there or a department or an agency looking to get a hold of you or get a part of this humans over hardware and just really take control of their team and make them 1 % better, how do we reach out and make that happen?

Stephen Scrobe (57:22.478)
Yeah, so I run the business development for the East Coast, specifically the Southeast, but I'd be more than happy to point them in the right direction if they're not, if they're out on the West Coast. We can certainly get them in touch with somebody. They can either reach me. I'm on LinkedIn, social media, all those good things. That's a real easy way. Other way is just email at steven .scrobyat02x .com. There's another way, or through my phone number.

Chris Warden (57:51.835)
Yeah, we can, we can, go ahead. Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (57:51.982)
Right, yeah, which we can post in the notes, I hope. Then, yeah, if they're interested, they can set up a meeting, we can talk about it. We have a lot of different options for how to integrate either our training education or our specialist program at agencies, regardless of size. So we have a lot of ways that we can do that, that we can work with different organizations because we really would like to see this nationwide because of the impact that we've already seen it have.

Chris Warden (58:04.539)
Great.

Chris Warden (58:14.139)
Yeah.

Chris Warden (58:18.011)
Absolutely. I know O2X, you can go on Amazon and search O2X, Tackle Athlete, you can grab their book. You can go to the Apple App Store and download the O2X app. There's a lot of ways to get ahold of O2X guys. I've sat through a number of classes. I know you have too, Steven, and you've led a bunch. I don't think there's enough positive you can say for the work that O2X does, but I would double down on the value that they bring to...

an organization is worth its weight in gold, if not life hours that they give back to the people on the front line.

Stephen Scrobe (58:57.486)
Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Warden (58:59.451)
Well, Stephen, I appreciate your time. I know you got to get going. Before we head off, what is the one quote that you've heard of your quotes that has stuck with you the most?

Stephen Scrobe (59:11.638)
It's probably the one that I heard and it came from a very strange source. It's from my wife, believe it or not, after I got out of law enforcement and we were trying to run our business and she said, listen, you need to figure out who you are without your title. Because I had been...

Canine officer, Scroby for so long, officer Scroby my whole life since I was 20 years old. It's all I've ever known. I have defined myself by the life I led as a law enforcement officer. Like in everything that I've done, every, had all been based around that. Most of my career decisions based around that. And then when I wasn't there anymore and that wasn't a part of my identity, a bit of a wake up call, you know, getting used to not.

Chris Warden (59:35.835)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (59:57.147)
huh. Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (01:00:01.998)
having that role or having that title or that responsibility anymore and trying to run a business that I was running with that mindset was not a good thing. She said, listen, you need to figure out who you are as a person without all of that attachment, you know, cause that's not who you are anymore. And I think a lot of people, they get lost in their career. They get lost in the job. They, they identify as firefighters or law enforcement and they take that to the grave.

Chris Warden (01:00:17.403)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (01:00:29.198)
and they forget along the way somewhere that there's every bit of a person in there apart from that that has their own goals, their own aspirations, their own things that they would love, their families, all these important aspects of them as a person that kind of get lost along the way. And I think we need to get that back, especially when it comes to goal setting and when it comes to just humanizing yourself.

Chris Warden (01:00:46.235)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Scrobe (01:00:59.086)
from this job that we have.

Chris Warden (01:01:02.427)
That's powerful. I think that's very profound and yeah, figuring out who you are without whatever title you're clinging to for dear life.

Stephen Scrobe (01:01:12.174)
Yeah, because people put a lot of expectations on us. I mean, you know, like that's that big four letter word everybody calls us. That's pretty heavy. You know, at the end of the day, they'll say, you're a hero. You know, especially with the fireside. Heroes. That's a hard title to wear. Yeah. For, you know, 25, 30 years for some people. That just adds to the stress, you know, and you don't, it's unneeded. It's unnecessary because we can be a

Chris Warden (01:01:19.898)
Mm -hmm.

Chris Warden (01:01:24.475)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a heavy crown, huh?

Chris Warden (01:01:34.235)
Yeah.

Stephen Scrobe (01:01:42.19)
apart from that. We can be fathers, we can be husbands. Yeah, should be. We can do all these amazing things. We can be business owners, we can have hobbies. And it's okay.

Chris Warden (01:01:45.691)
Yeah, we should be. Should be.

Chris Warden (01:01:56.059)
Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you making time today. Hopefully, if anything pops up and you want to jump back on, we'll swing it. And I appreciate your expertise and everybody. This has been Stephen Scroby. This is Chris with Party Traffic Podcast. Don't forget to check out o2x .com. They're the leader in tactical performance. Get after it, guys. Take care of yourselves and don't forget to grow a little bit. Stephen, thank you. I appreciate it. See ya.

Stephen Scrobe (01:02:21.326)
Appreciate it, Chris. Take care.